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please share what spring, * of helix you have and any other things you found work and dont work. Again please keep this to a solid what works and what does not, leave the b.s. fore the other threads.
 

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thanks for ruinung the thread. its not a point of asking them. its about what people have done to fine tune them.
Your thread isn't ruined. I laughed out loud when I read that you were asking to keep the b.s. out, remembering some of the things I have seen you post in other peoples threads. Lol
 

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Rage 3

G2 Secondary w EB
40*
Gold Spring
 

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Gen2, Gold spring 45 helix no engine break. was SUPER in the dunes (NOPADDLES YET) . I did swap it out with a yellow (softer) spring for the desert which made it much better for the desert style of riding. I have yet to try the yellow spring at the dunes tho. Primary is Rage 3, gold spring, wieghts are 8/0/0.
 

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alot of guys tune and look at their setup on dry ground. tuning on dry ground only gets you half covered. tuning in the sand while pulling up hills is a totally different animal and the tuning varies widely from a dry ground setup. a good clutch tuner will visit many many different areas to be able to fine tune setups and figure out what actually works for various riding conditions. no one size fits all. each owners riding style is different, along with tire size and terrain, so just because one helix and spring combo works on dry ground does not mean it will work under loads. alot of guys dont actually know what they are looking at anyway. they go install a clutch, give it a blast, and try to feel the difference without even knowing what the RPMs do, or mean. asking the question you did, although i know it is to try and gain knowledge, wont get you far. because 2/3rds of the guys who post on here about what they have, dont even know if it actually works, thats just what they actually have whether it works or not makes no difference, just hard and fast and if the motor sounds good they think its golden.

i worked on a bike this weekend, it was a re-tune. i was re-tuning and fixing someone elses not so good tune. the machine worked perfect on flat ground, RPMs were great, but when you put it under a load like a long hill climb, the RPMs would drop. when i went and put in the sand the RPMs tanked and dropped to 6800RPM. the clutch would not backshift at all and the RPMs dropped in the dirt, creating a huge load on the clutch, and overheating the belt. on the long hill climbs is what the owner really wanted to fix. he said when he was trying to power up hills, it always seemed to bog down, which i rode it and it was for sure losing RPMs on the uphill climbs. the clutch was upshifting too fast, and not backshifting itself into the lower gear ratios when needed. yet on dry ground it was great. it needed more helix/more spring. both of which i tried. and neither worked perfectly.

it had a 45 degree helix and gold spring and worked good on dry ground and held RPMs while you accelerate fine. but on the uphill climbs the RPMs would drop 400rpm+ which means the secondary was not backshifting down a gear. you can fix that problem by either adding a steeper degree helix angle, or a stiffer spring. but you have to be sure to balance it out. just throwing in a stiffer spring will cause alot of unnecessary heat in the belt from pinching the belt too much.

i tried a 40 degree helix and gold spring and fixed the weights in the primary to hold the right RPMs and put it back on the hills and it worked better, but with the steeper helix angle it wanted to over-rev a bit because the secondary could not upshift as fast as the primary was trying to. so i had to install a stiffer finish rate primary spring to overcome this by slowing down the rate of upshift in the primary. so i slowed the primary upshift down a taste, and had the steeper helix in, and it worked great. literally flawless almost everywhere, uphills climbed like an absolute animal, in the sand the RPMs were perfect, on dry ground it was perfect BUT! on my race course, every time the machine would leave the ground, and the tires lose traction the engine would bounce off the rev limiter. so when you hit whoops or some of the smaller jumps that you only get 6inches off the ground, it would always tag the rev limiter. that means the primary was not being able to upshift fast enough to maintain good wheel speed when you lose traction. when you get in wet mud or on wet ground like spinning on wet grass, you need the clutches to upshift much faster in order to be able to pull the wheel speed, but need to have a good balance to be able to make it backshift better.

so i took out the stiff primary spring and went down to the original rate i had. the lighter finish rate primary spring allowed the primary to upshift quicker and follow the engines power easier and quicker. swapped the secondary around to an even more aggressive helix angle of 36 degrees but dropped the spring rate down to a yellow. which is much softer than the gold. after re-tuning the primary, i was able to get the perfect RPM on dry ground, the perfect RPM on the sand, and the perfect RPM while on long uphill pulls, AND got rid of the over-rev and tagging the rev limiter when the tires left the ground. this particular calibration is not something i would have honestly calibrated myself. i dont typically use calibrations this wacky, BUT it worked on this particular vehicle better than anything else did. this was a 2014 machine with kunati mongrel tires. plus the original belt temps this machine was running after 4 laps on my test track was 195-200 degrees. after i finished calibrations we were seeing 150-155 belt temps. by keeping the clutches in the right gear ratio, and allowing them to backshift properly, it reduced the load on the clutches. also by reducing the spring tension in the secondary, it effectively reduces the amount of friction that the secondary is placing on the belt. when coupled with the proper helix angle, it allowed the belt to run efficiently, smoothly, and with no slip.

not every single tune is going to fit everyone. thats why i do SOOO much testing and try my best to learn everything i can and figure out what does work and carry it over to customers setups. i am the only person in the clutching industry that has the ability to go out and test the way i do i have my own test track built almost like a GNCC track that is almost 2 miles, i have a few hill climbs that are 50-65 degree grades and are 100-150+ft climbs and i have 3 sand bars on my place with almost 1/4 mile of sand to test on. my test facility gives me the ability to test everything all in one place. you can trust whoever you want. you can purchase from whoever you want. but to look down on me and think that i dont get you right is the wrong punch to throw. you can say i am a bad business man, you can say i dont answer phones, you can say alot of things, but trying to discredit my abilities is a jab that i wont take. you dont hear that i sold folks stuff they had to work on forever to get it right. when i build it, its gonna be set up for you and its gonna be right.
 

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alot of guys tune and look at their setup on dry ground. tuning on dry ground only gets you half covered. tuning in the sand while pulling up hills is a totally different animal and the tuning varies widely from a dry ground setup. a good clutch tuner will visit many many different areas to be able to fine tune setups and figure out what actually works for various riding conditions. no one size fits all. each owners riding style is different, along with tire size and terrain, so just because one helix and spring combo works on dry ground does not mean it will work under loads. alot of guys dont actually know what they are looking at anyway. they go install a clutch, give it a blast, and try to feel the difference without even knowing what the RPMs do, or mean. asking the question you did, although i know it is to try and gain knowledge, wont get you far. because 2/3rds of the guys who post on here about what they have, dont even know if it actually works, thats just what they actually have whether it works or not makes no difference, just hard and fast and if the motor sounds good they think its golden.

i worked on a bike this weekend, it was a re-tune. i was re-tuning and fixing someone elses not so good tune. the machine worked perfect on flat ground, RPMs were great, but when you put it under a load like a long hill climb, the RPMs would drop. when i went and put in the sand the RPMs tanked and dropped to 6800RPM. the clutch would not backshift at all and the RPMs dropped in the dirt, creating a huge load on the clutch, and overheating the belt. on the long hill climbs is what the owner really wanted to fix. he said when he was trying to power up hills, it always seemed to bog down, which i rode it and it was for sure losing RPMs on the uphill climbs. the clutch was upshifting too fast, and not backshifting itself into the lower gear ratios when needed. yet on dry ground it was great. it needed more helix/more spring. both of which i tried. and neither worked perfectly.

it had a 45 degree helix and gold spring and worked good on dry ground and held RPMs while you accelerate fine. but on the uphill climbs the RPMs would drop 400rpm+ which means the secondary was not backshifting down a gear. you can fix that problem by either adding a steeper degree helix angle, or a stiffer spring. but you have to be sure to balance it out. just throwing in a stiffer spring will cause alot of unnecessary heat in the belt from pinching the belt too much.

i tried a 40 degree helix and gold spring and fixed the weights in the primary to hold the right RPMs and put it back on the hills and it worked better, but with the steeper helix angle it wanted to over-rev a bit because the secondary could not upshift as fast as the primary was trying to. so i had to install a stiffer finish rate primary spring to overcome this by slowing down the rate of upshift in the primary. so i slowed the primary upshift down a taste, and had the steeper helix in, and it worked great. literally flawless almost everywhere, uphills climbed like an absolute animal, in the sand the RPMs were perfect, on dry ground it was perfect BUT! on my race course, every time the machine would leave the ground, and the tires lose traction the engine would bounce off the rev limiter. so when you hit whoops or some of the smaller jumps that you only get 6inches off the ground, it would always tag the rev limiter. that means the primary was not being able to upshift fast enough to maintain good wheel speed when you lose traction. when you get in wet mud or on wet ground like spinning on wet grass, you need the clutches to upshift much faster in order to be able to pull the wheel speed, but need to have a good balance to be able to make it backshift better.

so i took out the stiff primary spring and went down to the original rate i had. the lighter finish rate primary spring allowed the primary to upshift quicker and follow the engines power easier and quicker. swapped the secondary around to an even more aggressive helix angle of 36 degrees but dropped the spring rate down to a yellow. which is much softer than the gold. after re-tuning the primary, i was able to get the perfect RPM on dry ground, the perfect RPM on the sand, and the perfect RPM while on long uphill pulls, AND got rid of the over-rev and tagging the rev limiter when the tires left the ground. this particular calibration is not something i would have honestly calibrated myself. i dont typically use calibrations this wacky, BUT it worked on this particular vehicle better than anything else did. this was a 2014 machine with kunati mongrel tires. plus the original belt temps this machine was running after 4 laps on my test track was 195-200 degrees. after i finished calibrations we were seeing 150-155 belt temps. by keeping the clutches in the right gear ratio, and allowing them to backshift properly, it reduced the load on the clutches. also by reducing the spring tension in the secondary, it effectively reduces the amount of friction that the secondary is placing on the belt. when coupled with the proper helix angle, it allowed the belt to run efficiently, smoothly, and with no slip.

not every single tune is going to fit everyone. thats why i do SOOO much testing and try my best to learn everything i can and figure out what does work and carry it over to customers setups. i am the only person in the clutching industry that has the ability to go out and test the way i do i have my own test track built almost like a GNCC track that is almost 2 miles, i have a few hill climbs that are 50-65 degree grades and are 100-150+ft climbs and i have 3 sand bars on my place with almost 1/4 mile of sand to test on. my test facility gives me the ability to test everything all in one place. you can trust whoever you want. you can purchase from whoever you want. but to look down on me and think that i dont get you right is the wrong punch to throw. you can say i am a bad business man, you can say i dont answer phones, you can say alot of things, but trying to discredit my abilities is a jab that i wont take. you dont hear that i sold folks stuff they had to work on forever to get it right. when i build it, its gonna be set up for you and its gonna be right.
You might want to quit beating your own chest and retract that last statement.
 

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alot of guys tune and look at their setup on dry ground. tuning on dry ground only gets you half covered. tuning in the sand while pulling up hills is a totally different animal and the tuning varies widely from a dry ground setup. a good clutch tuner will visit many many different areas to be able to fine tune setups and figure out what actually works for various riding conditions. no one size fits all. each owners riding style is different, along with tire size and terrain, so just because one helix and spring combo works on dry ground does not mean it will work under loads. alot of guys dont actually know what they are looking at anyway. they go install a clutch, give it a blast, and try to feel the difference without even knowing what the RPMs do, or mean. asking the question you did, although i know it is to try and gain knowledge, wont get you far. because 2/3rds of the guys who post on here about what they have, dont even know if it actually works, thats just what they actually have whether it works or not makes no difference, just hard and fast and if the motor sounds good they think its golden.

i worked on a bike this weekend, it was a re-tune. i was re-tuning and fixing someone elses not so good tune. the machine worked perfect on flat ground, RPMs were great, but when you put it under a load like a long hill climb, the RPMs would drop. when i went and put in the sand the RPMs tanked and dropped to 6800RPM. the clutch would not backshift at all and the RPMs dropped in the dirt, creating a huge load on the clutch, and overheating the belt. on the long hill climbs is what the owner really wanted to fix. he said when he was trying to power up hills, it always seemed to bog down, which i rode it and it was for sure losing RPMs on the uphill climbs. the clutch was upshifting too fast, and not backshifting itself into the lower gear ratios when needed. yet on dry ground it was great. it needed more helix/more spring. both of which i tried. and neither worked perfectly.

it had a 45 degree helix and gold spring and worked good on dry ground and held RPMs while you accelerate fine. but on the uphill climbs the RPMs would drop 400rpm+ which means the secondary was not backshifting down a gear. you can fix that problem by either adding a steeper degree helix angle, or a stiffer spring. but you have to be sure to balance it out. just throwing in a stiffer spring will cause alot of unnecessary heat in the belt from pinching the belt too much.

i tried a 40 degree helix and gold spring and fixed the weights in the primary to hold the right RPMs and put it back on the hills and it worked better, but with the steeper helix angle it wanted to over-rev a bit because the secondary could not upshift as fast as the primary was trying to. so i had to install a stiffer finish rate primary spring to overcome this by slowing down the rate of upshift in the primary. so i slowed the primary upshift down a taste, and had the steeper helix in, and it worked great. literally flawless almost everywhere, uphills climbed like an absolute animal, in the sand the RPMs were perfect, on dry ground it was perfect BUT! on my race course, every time the machine would leave the ground, and the tires lose traction the engine would bounce off the rev limiter. so when you hit whoops or some of the smaller jumps that you only get 6inches off the ground, it would always tag the rev limiter. that means the primary was not being able to upshift fast enough to maintain good wheel speed when you lose traction. when you get in wet mud or on wet ground like spinning on wet grass, you need the clutches to upshift much faster in order to be able to pull the wheel speed, but need to have a good balance to be able to make it backshift better.

so i took out the stiff primary spring and went down to the original rate i had. the lighter finish rate primary spring allowed the primary to upshift quicker and follow the engines power easier and quicker. swapped the secondary around to an even more aggressive helix angle of 36 degrees but dropped the spring rate down to a yellow. which is much softer than the gold. after re-tuning the primary, i was able to get the perfect RPM on dry ground, the perfect RPM on the sand, and the perfect RPM while on long uphill pulls, AND got rid of the over-rev and tagging the rev limiter when the tires left the ground. this particular calibration is not something i would have honestly calibrated myself. i dont typically use calibrations this wacky, BUT it worked on this particular vehicle better than anything else did. this was a 2014 machine with kunati mongrel tires. plus the original belt temps this machine was running after 4 laps on my test track was 195-200 degrees. after i finished calibrations we were seeing 150-155 belt temps. by keeping the clutches in the right gear ratio, and allowing them to backshift properly, it reduced the load on the clutches. also by reducing the spring tension in the secondary, it effectively reduces the amount of friction that the secondary is placing on the belt. when coupled with the proper helix angle, it allowed the belt to run efficiently, smoothly, and with no slip.

not every single tune is going to fit everyone. thats why i do SOOO much testing and try my best to learn everything i can and figure out what does work and carry it over to customers setups. i am the only person in the clutching industry that has the ability to go out and test the way i do i have my own test track built almost like a GNCC track that is almost 2 miles, i have a few hill climbs that are 50-65 degree grades and are 100-150+ft climbs and i have 3 sand bars on my place with almost 1/4 mile of sand to test on. my test facility gives me the ability to test everything all in one place. you can trust whoever you want. you can purchase from whoever you want. but to look down on me and think that i dont get you right is the wrong punch to throw. you can say i am a bad business man, you can say i dont answer phones, you can say alot of things, but trying to discredit my abilities is a jab that i wont take. you dont hear that i sold folks stuff they had to work on forever to get it right. when i build it, its gonna be set up for you and its gonna be right.

Personally, I don't look down on you, I just couldn't get a hold of you. I left message after message, sent several emails and nothing. I wanted to get your setup but ended up buying directly from QSC after trying to contact you for a few weeks. It's kind of a bummer because most people that buy from you and are able to get a hold of you are generally happy. You can't please everyone.
 

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I tried getting hold of airdam several times by email and phone messages and never once got a call back. I'm extremely happy with who i went with and when I have a question he answer his emails or phone messages.
 

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Adam - great write up..... and I don't think anyone on the forum has doubted your ability to tune a clutch either....
 
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Back to the set up of the clutch and leave the opinions to someone who cares. We all have different tastes and likes. I don't have to like yours and you don't have to like mine. Good lord, can all of you guys grow a set and agree to disagree? I'm i retested in the facts of different machines wants and needs depending on terrain and riding style. Let's leave it at that
 

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Mega - looks like keeping this on track was an epic failure....I have the QSC/STM and am running a STM Gen II w/gold spring and 40 degree EB helix. Stock tires and run at 3-6K feet in elevation in desert terrain including hill climbs and sandy washouts with some occasional riding up in the mountains at higher elevations.
 

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there are companies that take machines to the dunes to test. STM is very close to the sand dunes. they have the ability to take machines there almost at will. i cant speak bad of STM on that account. its some of the other copy cats that claim to be the "chuck norris" of clutch tuning and such that i look at and laugh.
 

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Then you should have nothing to worry about.....your product and service should speak for itself as well as the others you are referring too. If their products and service are inferior or don't work as claimed.....people aren't going to spend $1500 to $2000 and keep their mouth shut. We will hear about it.
 
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