Can-Am Maverick Forum banner

1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just bought a 17 with around 2700mile. Took it for my first ride and after the day was over saw that the high temp light came on. When I got it in the shop low oil pressure came on so I started inspecting. I drained my oil with nothing in the pan but when I removed the filter a notice aluminium particles in the filter. So I did a compression test and all 3 cylinders are at 170-165 I took the turbo off thinking that the particles came from there. Went down to the local dealer and after inspection the turbo bearings are shot but the mechanic said those particles likely came from the bottom end. I took the magneto plate off and found chipped gears on the water and pressure pump. It looks like water infiltrated from the mag gasket
either from the water pump shaft gasket but I also found a hand tight mag cover bolt.
My question is do I pull the motor and flip it over to see where/if there is internal damage? Or just flush things out. It looks like there is a new/newer long block installed on this thing but I am questioning how well it was assembled.
To get the rotor off do I need to lock the crankshaft?
Any help/insight would I would be grateful.
 

·
Registered
2020 XRC Turbo RR
Joined
·
222 Posts
Unfortunately your bottom end is probably done. Maybe you'll get lucky and just be able to do bearings but you won't know until you pull the rod caps, assuming you can't see heat affected areas.
 

·
Premium Member
X3 XRS R Triple Black
Joined
·
1,300 Posts
As stated sounds bad! BUT before you pull it get the oil analyzed with all the damaged parts probably a cascade effect once pumped through the oil system turbo bearings started particles aground than someone trying to not face reality keep driving it

 

·
Registered
2020 X3 XRS Turbo RR
Joined
·
151 Posts
How did you determine that the particles in the oil filter were aluminum? Did you cut open the filter to find them? If the turbo bearings were shot, was there evidence of steel fines in the oil return line? Have you found the cause of the high coolant temp and low oil pressure yet?

Certainly you have some mechanical issues to resolve (turbo replacement, coolant leak, and chipped gears) but that alone doesn't point to a bottom end issue or need for a complete overhaul. A mechanic's off-hand comment about the fines probably coming from the bottom end doesn't impress me. I made my living as a service tech and can tell you that mechanics vary broadly in their knowledge and experience so that comment would need a lot more elaboration before I'd pay much attention to it. I'd do more troubleshooting before pulling the engine. And I'd make damn sure what you think are aluminum particles are really aluminum. With what you have described so far, I'd be more concerned about aluminum fines than steel. It's not uncommon to find some steel fines in the oil filter after a turbo bearing failure. And if those fines came from the turbo bearing they will be in oil return line. Not finding anything in the drained oil confirms that the filter is doing its job.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
How did you determine that the particles in the oil filter were aluminum? Did you cut open the filter to find them? If the turbo bearings were shot, was there evidence of steel fines in the oil return line? Have you found the cause of the high coolant temp and low oil pressure yet?

Certainly you have some mechanical issues to resolve (turbo replacement, coolant leak, and chipped gears) but that alone doesn't point to a bottom end issue or need for a complete overhaul. A mechanic's off-hand comment about the fines probably coming from the bottom end doesn't impress me. I made my living as a service tech and can tell you that mechanics vary broadly in their knowledge and experience so that comment would need a lot more elaboration before I'd pay much attention to it. I'd do more troubleshooting before pulling the engine. And I'd make damn sure what you think are aluminum particles are really aluminum. With what you have described so far, I'd be more concerned about aluminum fines than steel. It's not uncommon to find some steel fines in the oil filter after a turbo bearing failure. And if those fines came from the turbo bearing they will be in oil return line. Not finding anything in the drained oil confirms that the filter is doing its job.
Thanks I really appreciate the advice. Do you think I need to pull the motor to check the suction screens? When I drained the oil there was nothing on the magnet and nothing to speak of for contamination except darker in color that it should be because the day i bought the machine the oil was new and clean.
268234

This is what I pulled out after one ride.
Oil was just touching the stick and a coolant was low. So I assume it us being burn but there was no exhaust smoke and it ran good maybe just a hint of top end power loss but running 32's with nothing else to gauge it seemed to run good
268235
 

·
Premium Member
X3 XRS R Triple Black
Joined
·
1,300 Posts
As you pointed out if the dealer is correct and turbocharger bearings are bad plus the heat in the turbo wile hard use it could cook the oil

When you run hard and come to a stop do you allow the turbo to cool down before you kill the motor ?

Get the oil analysis it will give you some better data to make a better call it will tell you if its bearing material
 

·
Registered
2020 X3 XRS Turbo RR
Joined
·
151 Posts
An oil analysis that identifies the metallic debris will help you determine where the large particles originated. Normal engine wear will result in some small level of metal constituents in the oil and these will typically be so small and few as not detectable by eye but will show up on an oil analysis. Larger particles are a concern and if you find the source of these and correct the issue it likely will not need more than a flushing of the oil system.
 

·
Registered
2020 XRC Turbo RR
Joined
·
222 Posts
Ho
An oil analysis that identifies the metallic debris will help you determine where the large particles originated. Normal engine wear will result in some small level of metal constituents in the oil and these will typically be so small and few as not detectable by eye but will show up on an oil analysis. Larger particles are a concern and if you find the source of these and correct the issue it likely will not need more than a flushing of the oil system.
How long do you think an engine will last when the oil comes out looking like glitter after over heating and low coolant? I get where you're coming from but let's be realistic.
 

·
Registered
2020 X3 XRS Turbo RR
Joined
·
151 Posts
Ho


How long do you think an engine will last when the oil comes out looking like glitter after over heating and low coolant? I get where you're coming from but let's be realistic.
I see you don’t agree. That’s OK, there are many differing opinions on most every subject and that can be a good thing. But I assure you I am being realistic with many decades of practical real-world experience that has shaped my opinion.

Have the metal fines caused damage and if so, to what extent? Other than a borescope into the cylinder for a visual inspection, the only way to determine and measure damage to all other surfaces would require a teardown. You can play it safe and go straight to the teardown and at that point, a rebuild would be the next logical step. And there was a time I’d be right with you on that decision. And when I was making a living overhauling car and truck engines, that decision was much easier to make. However, after half a century of tearing down and rebuilding engines I’ve learned that some metallic flakes in the oil filter don’t necessarily spell doom and gloom.

So, what is the criteria we use when determining a rebuild is required when we find metal in the oil filter? Look at the Can-Am service manual, you won’t find one. There is no auto industry wide standard either. In the aviation industry the oil filter will be cut open at every oil change and inspected for metal fines. Racers do this too and I have cut open thousands of oil filters. I used to get concerned at the sight of even one metal speck. But after years of experience cutting open filters and rebuilding engines, I’ve come to realize that the specks from metal wear is quite common and seeing it in the filter does not constitute an immediate need to overhaul an engine.

An aircraft engine failure can be a critical safety issue, I know this because I’m a pilot with a commercial license that has spent many hours training for such an emergency. But even aircraft engines that show metal in the oil filter don’t necessarily require an overhaul. Take a look at this article for a better understanding: https://resources.savvyaviation.com...cles_eaa/EAA_2013-01_how-much-is-too-much.pdf
 

·
Registered
2020 XRC Turbo RR
Joined
·
222 Posts
I see you don’t agree. That’s OK, there are many differing opinions on most every subject and that can be a good thing. But I assure you I am being realistic with many decades of practical real-world experience that has shaped my opinion.

Have the metal fines caused damage and if so, to what extent? Other than a borescope into the cylinder for a visual inspection, the only way to determine and measure damage to all other surfaces would require a teardown. You can play it safe and go straight to the teardown and at that point, a rebuild would be the next logical step. And there was a time I’d be right with you on that decision. And when I was making a living overhauling car and truck engines, that decision was much easier to make. However, after half a century of tearing down and rebuilding engines I’ve learned that some metallic flakes in the oil filter don’t necessarily spell doom and gloom.

So, what is the criteria we use when determining a rebuild is required when we find metal in the oil filter? Look at the Can-Am service manual, you won’t find one. There is no auto industry wide standard either. In the aviation industry the oil filter will be cut open at every oil change and inspected for metal fines. Racers do this too and I have cut open thousands of oil filters. I used to get concerned at the sight of even one metal speck. But after years of experience cutting open filters and rebuilding engines, I’ve come to realize that the specks from metal wear is quite common and seeing it in the filter does not constitute an immediate need to overhaul an engine.

An aircraft engine failure can be a critical safety issue, I know this because I’m a pilot with a commercial license that has spent many hours training for such an emergency. But even aircraft engines that show metal in the oil filter don’t necessarily require an overhaul. Take a look at this article for a better understanding: https://resources.savvyaviation.com...cles_eaa/EAA_2013-01_how-much-is-too-much.pdf
I don't think we disagree much. The picture of the filter housing cap doesn't look like just some metal flakes in the filter media pleates. Glittery oil almost always means metal was pumped through all of the bearings. As I said in my first post, and you reiterated, the OP won't know the extent of the damage until caps get pulled assuming there aren't obvious signs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
I see some stuff in the filter cap. I've seen worse. Doesn't looked serviced often
Repair the turbo. Find overheating issue Change oil and filter after running hour.
Then ride it a while, then get oil sample if you are worried.
Some people get a little crazy, not pointing fingers.
If it is damaged, the 2 hours, one at idle, and one around block, probably wont do anymore damage anyway.
My $.02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I see some stuff in the filter cap. I've seen worse. Doesn't looked serviced often
Repair the turbo. Find overheating issue Change oil and filter after running hour.
Then ride it a while, then get oil sample if you are worried.
Some people get a little crazy, not pointing fingers.
If it is damaged, the 2 hours, one at idle, and one around block, probably wont do anymore damage anyway.
My $.02
The filter was clogged pretty bad to the point it flashed low oil pressure I am guessing. So with the pressure pump teeth chipped and the water pump teeth chipped I am debating pulling the motor out. If I have to lock the crank in order to get the rotor off so I can replace the pressure pump gear. So does it pay to just pull the motor right out?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
The filter was clogged pretty bad to the point it flashed low oil pressure I am guessing. So with the pressure pump teeth chipped and the water pump teeth chipped I am debating pulling the motor out. If I have to lock the crank in order to get the rotor off so I can replace the pressure pump gear. So does it pay to just pull the motor right out?
Sorry, I missed the filter clogged part. My bad
Low oil pressure will also come from filter plugged and being hot.
If it was mine, I would fix turbo, put it together and go.
But, I only live 1 mile from the trail that goes up the mountain.
It would suck to haul it hours and expire on first day.
But, you asked opinions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Sorry, I missed the filter clogged part. My bad
Low oil pressure will also come from filter plugged and being hot.
If it was mine, I would fix turbo, put it together and go.
But, I only live 1 mile from the trail that goes up the mountain.
It would suck to haul it hours and expire on first day.
But, you asked opinions.
Sorry, I missed the filter clogged part. My bad
Low oil pressure will also come from filter plugged and being hot.
If it was mine, I would fix turbo, put it together and go.
But, I only live 1 mile from the trail that goes up the mountain.
It would suck to haul it hours and expire on first day.
But, you asked opinions.
268288

Even with the teeth like this?
 

·
Registered
2020 XRC Turbo RR
Joined
·
222 Posts
I see some stuff in the filter cap. I've seen worse. Doesn't looked serviced often
Repair the turbo. Find overheating issue Change oil and filter after running hour.
Then ride it a while, then get oil sample if you are worried.
Some people get a little crazy, not pointing fingers.
If it is damaged, the 2 hours, one at idle, and one around block, probably wont do anymore damage anyway.
My $.02
Maybe I'm just a chicken little but if you catch damaged bearings soon enough you can get away with just changing the bearings. Or, you can roll the dice hoping for the best and potentially spin a bearing requiring a new crank and a rod or three. You certainly have a point and I'm not saying you're wrong but I have never seen an engine filled with glittery oil escape bearing damage. I've been in the OP's position and rolled the dice as you and the other guy are suggesting and it cost me 10X what it would have had I been more patient and just done the tear down from the start.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Maybe I'm just a chicken little but if you catch damaged bearings soon enough you can get away with just changing the bearings. Or, you can roll the dice hoping for the best and potentially spin a bearing requiring a new crank and a rod or three. You certainly have a point and I'm not saying you're wrong but I have never seen an engine filled with glittery oil escape bearing damage. I've been in the OP's position and rolled the dice as you and the other guy are suggesting and it cost me 10X what it would have had I been more patient and just done the tear down from the start.
I'm not into rolling the dice. I am in maintenance and know what happens when you don't pay attention to problems you pay a lot more later. I guess I have my answer and should pull and flip the motor over and see what is going on. I assume that water must have mixed with the oil and with enough time started causing damage. The previous owner knew what was going on and cleaned it up and pushed it down the road. With fresh oil I couldn't tell. No noise seemed tight and I have been around enough motors but this one fooled me.
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top